| But
what do you call fish eaters? Can you rank consciousness? |
Interesting
articles on fish. I stopped eating most meat...6 or 7 years ago
I think. The thing that pushed me over the
edge - after many years of gentle background pondering and on top
of various information that gradually came my way - was a graphic
description of cattle killing. There's a problem in our society that
we're not given the chance to make reasoned choices until it's too
late - the dangers inherent in driving (we should see some graphic
illustrations of the potential effects of the killer machine we're
taking charge of), the brainwashing of youngsters with religion (leave
it till they're 18 and see how many are convinced then) and meat
eating (food nicely squared and packaged; you'd never believe it
was Snuffy the Lamb's thigh yesterday). For example, in all my years
(now 37) I've only ever come across one programme on TV which showed
us the scenes of the abattoir; and it was horrific; enough to put
the hardiest meat eater off their kebab for a couple of Saturdays
at least. But who's going to convert permanently once they've reached
adolescence? Not many. Certainly not as many as would if
children received suitable information and could gradually form a
view before their habits became too ingrained. Not that such information
has to be too graphic - anymore than education about sex, drugs or
rock n roll is; just suitably targeted at each age group. This is
how I'm trying to approach meat eating with my (carnivorous) 6 year
old son anyhow.
Anyway
- fish. I admit to being one of these 'vegetarians' that eats
fish. The comments and annoyance of people on this page
are fine. But part of the reason fish eaters do use the term,
is -
what do you call yourself when your friends or restaurateur ask? "I'm
a person who doesn't eat animals with higher levels of consciousness?" This
would be too close to the old joke about being a 7th level vegetarian
("I eat nothing that casts a shadow"). Actually, I
have recently come across some terms - the colloquial 'vegequarian'
(I liked this but I suspect you guys wouldn't...) and 'pesco-vegetarian'
(likewise). I can see why you want to reserve vegetarianism to
relate to pure non-animal diets and I agree, but the problem
is
there - what are us fish eaters? I see myself as being 90% of
the way to being vegetarian - just like I was 50% of the way
to stopping
smoking when I got from 20 to 10 a day; some people cut a habit
dead; others have to work their way gradually. Personally, I
usually end up saying "I don't eat mammals", but this
comes across, I think, as being one step removed from saying "I
don't eat live babies".
I
had my reasons for sticking with fish - my judgement call 7 years
ago was - would I kill the animal myself?
The thing that
concerned me wasn't eating meat, but asking someone to do something
which I was not prepared to do myself; and something that was
somewhat
wasteful, unnecessary and cruel at that. If I wouldn't do it
myself, I shouldn't ask someone else to do it. If I would do
it however,
then fine, let someone do it for me. I wouldn't kill a cow, sheep,
dog or cat for a snack (of course, I would kill the animal in
a situation where it was "me, or it" - but then that
would apply as regards me and another person, if push came to
shove).
But I would kill a fish and eat it. That was my reasoning then.
It got me off most animals anyway. And - try and convince me
otherwise - but as an atheist (oh oh - another difficult term)
I see the
obvious truth of evolutionary theory, and I still hold that we
can order animals by levels of consciousness and awareness, and
that fish rank below mammals. I do however, accept the danger
of this line of reasoning and have always realised at some level
that it is of dubious strength...
So - currently, fish remain in my kitchen; but I do reckon I'll
stop at some point. It was certainly useful to see the info and
comments on this site as it definitely helps with helping change
my viewpoint; there are the issues of overfishing and ok - although
I'd kill the fish, it appears that things are slightly nastier;
the person killing it for me isn't doing it in a quick humane,
single-catch kind of way as I would; it's being done in a more
mechanistic, unpleasant and painful way. Much like cattle. I shall
read a bit more and maybe it'll do the same trick for me for fish
as the iron rod through Mooster the Cow's skull did for mammals...
In
the meantime, as Saint Ignatius of Loyola said - "Give
me the boy and I'll give you the man"; if more people are
to live as vegetarians, the best people to convince are the children.
Where are the arguments and education in the theatres where children
can be reached - on TV, in magazines, cinema adverts?
Thanks. - Gordon Panther.
|
| The Replies: |
The
textbook I studied in about 1980 was "The
puzzle of pain" by R Melzack and PD Wall on their 1965 gate
theory of pain. "The puzzle of pain" was for undergraduate
students and may no longer be available.
However, any modern textbook should also cover the evolution of pain perception.
Gordon correctly points out
that this evolutionary relationship between all animals with backbones
(vertebrates) would not rule out harming other animals. However even
UK Government guidelines on animal experimentation provide protection
for some highly evolved invertebrates without backbones (namely cephalapods
- squid and octopus).
~
Regards,
LC Jackson.
|
| Aren't we risking cannibalism among humankind when
we consider the incredible intelligence of animals like apes and
dolphins? The least intelligent of our race, as well as those who
are comatose, sleeping, blind, deaf, mentally ill or of infant age,
to name a few, can all fall short of the intelligence and awareness
of some animals, and must be 'fair game' for those who follow the
supremacist theory spouted by Mr Panther.
Dominion by humankind is a debt of duty and care, not a god-given
right to plunder the Earths resources according to our own ignorant
assumptions.
|
Gordon Panther
states that he is "90% on the way
to being vegetarian" just as he was 50% on the way to stopping
smoking when he went from 20 to 10 a day - my question is, could
he call himself a non-smoker when he was still smoking 10 a day?????
Sorry people - but you simply are not vegetarians - so get over
it!
-
Anne
McCormack
|
I confess, I am a 'vegetarian' that eats fish. I do
this for animal rights, and I used to think it was wrong to eat fish
when being vegetarian. But then I read somewhere that even stopping
eating just some meat will have an effect in animal rights in the
long run. I enjoy eating fish, although I DON'T eat cod, which I
know is endangered, and I eat dolphin friendly fish where possible.
At least fish-eating vegetarians like myself are doing something
to help with animal rights, and we have nothing else to call ourselves
except vegetarians when asked why we don't eat meat. I have heard
that there is another name for fish-eating vegetarians. But who has
ever heard that name, and who would recognise it? For now, at least,
I still class myself as a 'vegetarian'.
-Helena Jerrome |
In
reply to Gordon Panther’s question: A good
name for a ‘vegetarian’ who eats fish is a ‘pescatarian’.
I have heard this word used in this context often, by TV chefs and
presenters and in magazines, so it is already ‘out there’.
And think we, as vegetarians would do well to encourage a separate
term for fish-eaters.
-
John Parton
|
Gordon Panther asks us where is the education for children?
He will find that The Vegetarian Society produces curriculum linked
Project Books for GCSE level, as well as other school resources and
literature for young people, and a speaker service for schools.
TV
and cinema adverts on issues deemed ‘political’ (such
as animal welfare or the environment), are difficult. At the moment
the law prohibits much advertising in this area – hence no
ads from Greenpeace on the telly. At least one political pressure
group is currently challenging the law banning their advert on
the wildlife trade in the courts. Of course it would be great to
advertise more openly on animal welfare issues and reach more (young)
people, but it simply isn’t allowed.
-Daisy Roberts
|
Gordon Panther's posting asks 2 questions:
1. But what do you call fish eaters?
2. Can you rank consciousness?
1. The answer to question 1
is obviously not "
vegetarian". If you don't eat meat but do eat fish, then
there is no simple way to convey this quickly. If you find the
absence of a simple name awkward then the obvious solution is
to adopt a diet with a simple widely recognised name, "vegetarian",
or "vegan" for instance.
2. In answer to question 2,
there is no agreed definition of consciousness. It is better
to classify by the organism's pain perception system. The human
pain perception system is common to all animals with backbones,
including fish.
-
L.
Jackson, BSc Biological Sciences (Psychology Honours), Edinburgh,
1981
|
| And Gordon's response... |
| 5/2/2007: It's taken me (Gordon Panther) a while but
I'd like to respond to some of the points made about my comment above
if I may.
Anne
- You ask whether I was a non smoker whilst smoking 10 a day.
No, I was a smoker, but my point was that I was less of
a
smoker than I had been and that, moreover, I had a plan and a
definite aim to become a non smoker. As I said in my original
posting, some
people quit cold turkey, some approach a problem gradually; each
to their own in my view. In this context - am I a vegetarian?
Clearly not - but likewise I have a definite aim to become a
vegerarian.
Anne - I would say; for most people in my position your closing
comment will simply raise their heckles and drive them from your
cause. If you want to convert some people over (and I think you/"we" should
be doing so), you need to encourage them, not belittle or trivialise
their viewpoints.
Helena - I agree with most of your points (ie you may not be 'perfect'
(who is) but you're doing more than most), though I do think we
should avoid calling ourselves vegetarians, see next re: John's
comment. If the situation is suitable, not having a word can actually
be useful though - saying you don't eat mammals (which we have
in common with veggies) can catch people's interest (shock value)
and perhaps open their minds up to something they've not considered
much before. I (only occasionally mind) try and talk other people
into becoming veggie even though I'm not yet there.
John - Thanks re: the "pescatarian" - it sounds a bit
more...usable than "pesco-vegetarian" so I'll give
that a go and see.
Daisy - Thanks for your information; I didn't realise there were
such restrictions re: TV - sounds pretty dodgy! And the TV (etc)
was really what I was thinking about yes - we all need information
ramming down our throats to take any notice as we all have no end
of jobs to do, trouble to handle etc. If we have to go out and
learn about everything ourselves - well there isn't time for anything
but a very few subjects per person. The speaker service for schools
you mention sounds interesting, I'll have a look into that thanks...
L. Jackson - I'm not sure if your comment that I should become
a veggie simply to have a simple word to use was meant in a humorous
or facetious fashion but will assume the former! Your comments
on conciousness are interesting and I shall delve deeper - are
there particular unbiased, accessible (and preferably refereed)
laymen articles around that you could recommend please? [ As I
also have a degree of my very own you'll understand that I need
the source documents! ]. BTW - your comment about backbones made
me wonder - how do simpler animals fit into the veggie view? I'm
thinking of things like insects, sponges, worms etc. Obviously
not a major part of western diet, but quit edible. Presumably veggie's
wouldn't eat such things?
- Gordon Panther.
|
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